tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.comments2010-07-13T11:05:51.406+08:00Spiritus et VitaEdwardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comBlogger307125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-1879219761858574442010-07-13T11:05:51.406+08:002010-07-13T11:05:51.406+08:00Ming,
很高興聽到您報讀夜神的消息。
其實在這條目之下討論默主哥耶問題,顯然有點離題了。相信...Ming,<br /><br />很高興聽到您報讀夜神的消息。<br /><br />其實在這條目之下討論默主哥耶問題,顯然有點離題了。相信在這網誌之內,您可知悉小弟對此事宜的看法和立場。歡迎您在抽空閱讀之後,留下寶貴意見。<br /><br />主祐!<br /><br />EdwardEdwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-30631310631734148702010-07-05T11:05:18.756+08:002010-07-05T11:05:18.756+08:00對不起。我也是才疏學淺的人。不過,體會過天主在默主歌耶所賜的恩寵後,我只好在信仰上再出發。讀夜神去,...對不起。我也是才疏學淺的人。不過,體會過天主在默主歌耶所賜的恩寵後,我只好在信仰上再出發。讀夜神去,打開自已,接受聖神。有朝聖者可能過了「火位」,但不代表這不是天主所賜的「金礦」。歡迎討論。Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663042019844635213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-58814845032549159432009-11-02T20:36:39.338+08:002009-11-02T20:36:39.338+08:00謝謝你的資料!今天專程走了公進社一躺,發現這是一本資料非常豐富的彌撒書。貌似最後一本也給我買下了!主...謝謝你的資料!今天專程走了公進社一躺,發現這是一本資料非常豐富的彌撒書。貌似最後一本也給我買下了!主佑!軟綿綿https://www.blogger.com/profile/11432748367014557246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-30753663738385807232009-10-31T20:16:56.186+08:002009-10-31T20:16:56.186+08:00Hi Bryan,
很高興在這兒見到您!
該書名為《Roman Catholic Daily M...Hi Bryan,<br /><br />很高興在這兒見到您!<br /><br />該書名為《Roman Catholic Daily Missal - 1962》。中環公進社亦有售呢!Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-89785949594463275142009-10-29T23:33:40.335+08:002009-10-29T23:33:40.335+08:00Dear Edward,我叫Bryan。請問這本舊禮儀書在哪裡找得到呢?雖然我對禮儀的認識和你相比實...Dear Edward,我叫Bryan。請問這本舊禮儀書在哪裡找得到呢?雖然我對禮儀的認識和你相比實在微不足道,但實在非常同意這本經書對婚配聖事的解讀。剛巧我也在籌備婚禮,看到你這篇文章,真的很想找一本留念。軟綿綿https://www.blogger.com/profile/11432748367014557246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-3943004539365447772009-10-20T12:24:34.757+08:002009-10-20T12:24:34.757+08:00親愛的Calvin主內弟兄,
你說得很對,默主哥耶是一個金礦。我下載了Michael Davies’...親愛的Calvin主內弟兄,<br />你說得很對,默主哥耶是一個金礦。我下載了Michael Davies’ Online Book,亦將全本書看完,亦在很多提倡默主哥耶的網站中,看到對已去世的Michael Davies所作出的批評。在我所屬的堂區內,默主哥耶朝拜者已成為一股可以左右堂區運作的勢力。他們每星期有祈禱及分享,亦將默主哥耶聖母(Gospa-Our Lady of Medugorje) 全天候「供奉」在祭台。每當教友向聖體龕下跪朝拜時,也在同時向默主哥耶聖母下跪。每當神父在彌撒奉香時,默主哥耶聖母亦能同玷這敬禮。難怪外教人叫我們天主教為拜聖母教。教會說這不是朝拜,只是為表達我們對聖母之敬慕。我才疏學淺,對教理及聖經一知半解,雖已入教近半世紀,但觀乎那羣默主哥耶信奉者的行為,實弄不清朝拜及敬慕的分別。<br />有些神職人員,自從免費朝聖於默主哥耶後,有如脫胎換骨,將這些「神視者」看作神明。並公然承認得到當地神父贈默主哥耶唸珠,授予覆手冶癒的「功力」,其神奇尤如在看武俠小說。更甚的是有神職人員,自創網站,並在網站中大量傳送默主哥耶訊息,以「福傳」作大前提,實則是為默主哥耶作宣傳。<br />好了,大發完一輪謬論,心情好了一些,是時候向天主懺悔了!<br />主佑<br />一個才疏學淺的老教友Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-78100502737095738782009-10-19T09:33:18.545+08:002009-10-19T09:33:18.545+08:00We should look at the Medjugorje incidents with op...We should look at the Medjugorje incidents with open mind. I agreed there are a lot of good things happened in Medjugorje. But is this really an Apparition? I love my Holy mother. But then, I do not think our Holy Mother would play favoritism. Otherwise, how can we explain that our Holy Mother appears every month to those seers (visionaries) and provided them with a mean for a very luxurious life. I believe that our Holy mother loves us all and would have nothing to do with anything that can be seen as playing favoritism. Of the six seers, Marija still claims she received the most visions from our Holy Mother. In fact, she can predict when and where she will have the vision. <br />I extracted the following from an annoucement on the web:<br /><br />Marija Lunetti, her husband Paolo, and their youngest son, Giovanni made a last minute decision to attend the wedding of two community members that took place Friday, February 13th. Marija will be leaving Wednesday, February 18th and so today(February 17) you are invited to come to the Field to be blessed by Our Lady in the apparitions.<br /><br />Marija, and her family is now living in a 6-Storey Home in Monza, Italy, a place where some writers called “palatial”, and she still is receiving all these visionary messages from our Holy Mother. . Other seers are also having a very comfortable life and drives fancy cars. I guess that means it is not the place (Medugorje), but the individuals (Marija and the other seers) that counts. That’s why she can tell everyone when and where our Holy Mother will appear. (for example, in July 2008, she snnounced that the Virgin Mary has appeared to her, offered a blessing and promised to return at 10 p.m. Thursday in a field in Shelby County.) To me, it looks like our Holy Mother will appear to her whenever she wants. It can be in her bedroom, in the fields, or in a bus. All she needs is to ask and our Holy Mother will be there. One of the alleged vision happened in the home of Colafrancesco, who since then received a lot of donations from around the world to support his Caritas Community which was found after Marija’s 1988 visit. Caritas of Birminham, Caritas Community and Colafrancesco later was sued by members of their own community. In the court document, one of the plaintiff compared Colafrancesco to Koresh, and compared the Caritas Community to Waco. I know we are all sinners, but I do not believe our Holy Mother would allow her name to be tied to these characters and the cult like life of members of this community.<br /><br />I am trying to get an English translation of a book called “Commericialization of Medugorje”. If anyone knows where I can obtain a copy of the book, please let me know.<br /><br />Sincerely in Christ!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-50994311548996316502009-07-30T08:44:17.885+08:002009-07-30T08:44:17.885+08:00太好了!从今天开始,我将善待长上!太好了!从今天开始,我将善待长上!Fr.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070995920017902277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-44664696587166921102009-07-27T08:32:09.110+08:002009-07-27T08:32:09.110+08:00非常好的礼仪神学反省!谢谢您的分享!非常好的礼仪神学反省!谢谢您的分享!Fr.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070995920017902277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-15332761723539421042009-06-24T12:13:32.938+08:002009-06-24T12:13:32.938+08:00Dear Edward,
You know, Medjugorje is all about $$...Dear Edward,<br /><br />You know, Medjugorje is all about $$$$$$$$$$.<br /><br />Those so-called witnesses own 2 car parks and a tennis court at home!<br /><br />It would be great if you can deliver the true catholic view on this matter to the KKP. I always refer to Michael Davies. Check this out : http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/<br /><br />Moreover, do you know if the bishop is aware of this matter or not? Two priests of the Diocese of Hong Kong are going to lead two "teams" to go to Medjugorje in a short time! They are from the Church of Announciation in Tsuen Wan.<br /><br />Disaster!<br /><br />CalvinCalvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07042631613471633375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-60111833985958471042009-06-24T11:08:05.823+08:002009-06-24T11:08:05.823+08:00Dear Calvin,
It is certainly a terrible thing to ...Dear Calvin,<br /><br />It is certainly a terrible thing to confuse the personal view of the Pope with the official teaching of the Church.<br /><br />Concerning Medjugorje, I don't think either JPII or B16 has ever been on their side. You know, there is much wishful thinking and spiritual blindness involved in these phenomena. They classically cannot be convinced.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-45113541075453606342009-06-24T11:03:46.556+08:002009-06-24T11:03:46.556+08:00Dear Edward,
I really can't sustain that guy ...Dear Edward,<br /><br />I really can't sustain that guy uses His Holiness' personal view as the offical standing of the church.<br />Terrible.<br />Did he receive any training from the seminary?<br /><br />CalvinCalvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07042631613471633375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-48839043133003493972009-06-24T00:02:27.939+08:002009-06-24T00:02:27.939+08:00Dear Calvin,
也許我們可以重溫以往在論盡那邊的一些相關討論。
隨從良心的指引本身,不...Dear Calvin,<br /><br />也許我們可以重溫以往在論盡那邊的一些相關<a href="http://www.theology.org.hk/forum/detail.asp?region_no=2&area_no=4&topic_no=24" rel="nofollow">討論</a>。<br /><br />隨從良心的指引本身,不一定表示該良心就一定運作正常(即你所說的:引領一個人走向天主及教會)。教會訓導(不論梵二前後)在這事宜上所針對的,就是指一個被錯誤引導的良心(所謂的受「不可克服的無知」所影響),亦有可能被天主用作施恩施救的平台。<br /><br />小弟比較傾向於認為,「聽從良心指引」為一個外教徒的得救來說,固然是相當重要的條件,但它本身亦不是得救的「充份」條件。這個正直的外教徒,亦需要天主恩寵的進一步幫助,而至於「信德」的境界--就是這種信德,促使他加入諸聖共融的行列--但天主實際上怎樣做,我們卻不知道。<br /><br />梵二的訓導,當然不可以和以往的教會訓導相衝突。這是「hermeneutic of continuity」嘛!不過,小弟分析兩者的著眼點,不是在於找出他們之間的「衝突」和「矛盾」,而是著眼於應將它們如何解釋、才不至於產生衝突和矛盾。這不是「孰是孰非」的問題,而是「他們兩者,如何都是對的」的問題。<br /><br />至於其他基督宗派弟兄們的洗禮屬於有效與否,最好還是聽從「阿公」的定斷吧!<br /><br />至於尹神父最近那篇文章,小弟亦正考慮是否值得撰寫一篇回應。相信你都知啦,讀了數期,似乎還未見他回應本人先前在《慎防道聽塗說》一文中所提出的論點,再爭論下去,恐怕變成「各說各話」也說不定呢。<br /><br />祝你考試成功,為你祈禱啊!<br /><br />EdwardEdwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-82797220060694177732009-06-23T21:46:45.422+08:002009-06-23T21:46:45.422+08:00Dear Edward,
I am fine. :)
I will be having the l...Dear Edward,<br /><br />I am fine. :)<br />I will be having the last subject of the final examination tomorrow, please pray for me.<br /><br />There is no orginal grace. If there was any original grace, it would have been destroyed by the original sin.<br /><br />In order to go to heaven, I believe baptism is needed and is necessary. Grace as you have mentioned, can be divided into two types, Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace. We can only gain the sanctifying grace from the sacrament of the church, such as Baptism and Confession. No doubt, the receiving of Acutal Grace does not require a man to be in the state of Sanctifying grace.<br /><br />"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", "Ubi Petrus Ibi Ecclesia". <br /><br />Those who do not know God, i.e. they have never heard about any thing about the True God, can go to heaven if they lived according to the light of conscience. But for those who have heard about God and did not believe in Him, there should not be any chance for them to go to heaven because they rejected the guidiance of the light of conscience which eventually lead them to the true God and the one true Church.<br /><br />And for those protestant, I don't believe their so-called Baptism is valid. When we consider the validity of sacrament, we consider its form, matter intention. Appearently, the form and matter are valid in their so-called Baptism because they used pure water and correctly announced "ego te baptizo in nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti, Amen". But I believe their intention is not valid, because they are not tending to excercise the will of the church. As if they want to do so, they are still not practicing the intention of the one True Church.<br /><br />And for those Buddhists and anything else, the above first situation can still be applied. Their salvation is depending on if they have ever heard about the Truth of God and if they followed the light of conscience.<br /><br />The church cannot contradict its own teaching. Vantican II cannot contradict the previous Councils.<br />Thus we have to distinguish which one is right and which one is wrong.<br /><br />On the other hand, what do you think about the few articles written by 尹雅白 on KKP?<br />I believe this is exactly a trap! A dangerous trap for those who cannot distinguish the REAL teaching of the church.<br />How can he use the personal feeling of the pope and see them as an official standing of the church? Nonsense! I still believe that the pope can be wrong when he is not saying things "ex cathedra" on the topic of faith and morals.<br /><br />CalvinCalvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07042631613471633375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-71632233466393616332009-06-23T14:04:39.980+08:002009-06-23T14:04:39.980+08:00Calvin兄:
好久不見,最近可好?
原罪是一個「消極」概念。它本質上是指常恩(sanctif...Calvin兄:<br /><br />好久不見,最近可好?<br /><br />原罪是一個「消極」概念。它本質上是指常恩(sanctifying grace/聖化恩寵)的「缺乏」--而這種缺乏亦同時是「遺傳」的。<br /><br />在原罪中去世的人,當然不可能上天堂,因為他們缺乏聖化恩寵。<br /><br />問題是在於:為達致聖化恩寵的境界,是否必須透過洗禮、而洗禮的這種必要性,又同時排拒了天主以其他方式施恩的可能性?<br /><br />你會如何看梵二的上述兩項教導?Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-37963174476210645242009-06-23T12:31:07.571+08:002009-06-23T12:31:07.571+08:00The pugatory is only for those who baptized.
Durin...The pugatory is only for those who baptized.<br />During the celebration of mass, the priest says the mass for living and dead. The word "dead" means those who died in the state of grace.<br />It is impossible for those who has not been baptized to die in the state of grace since they are still bound by the Original Sin, we would never say someone who has died with Original Sin is in the state of grace.Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07042631613471633375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-59192045326905875762009-06-22T07:52:16.004+08:002009-06-22T07:52:16.004+08:00道明神父:
小弟所徵引的,是Dom Prosper Guéranger所著的《The Holy M...道明神父:<br /><br />小弟所徵引的,是Dom Prosper Guéranger所著的《The Holy Mass》。於亞馬遜書店有售的,詳見這個<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mass-Dom-Prosper-Gueranger/dp/1905574045" rel="nofollow">連結</a>。<br /><br />EdwardEdwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-42272956282866944712009-06-21T10:35:14.556+08:002009-06-21T10:35:14.556+08:00Fantastic, and amazing, Edward.
I was wondering wh...Fantastic, and amazing, Edward.<br />I was wondering what the book of Dom Prosper Gueranger is. May I have a copy?Fr.Dominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16070995920017902277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-71662199130993583062009-06-10T03:00:35.694+08:002009-06-10T03:00:35.694+08:00Theologos所言极是。
当年所谓的“北京屠城”,或多或少有西方媒体夸张。
中共当年确实有掩...Theologos所言极是。<br /><br />当年所谓的“北京屠城”,或多或少有西方媒体夸张。<br /><br />中共当年确实有掩盖真相,杀死老百姓无法宽恕之罪。这是事实胜于雄辩。但是,中共中央的过激反应,正如去年的“拉薩事件”,主要是基于当时北京城已经开始失控局势。我们唯一所有的消息和焦点都是在天安门广场内。那么北京城郊,五环外的情况,我们知道多少?<br /><br />6月4日悲剧之前,经已有平民对城外站岗的军队作出挑逗性行动。最先的大学生高中生老师罢课到天安门广场抗议,到最后其他为数众多的其他平民加入声援。这些平民包括当地北京人和大批五湖四海的外地工人。请注意一点,这些大批的外地工人大多是低学历的低技术,下岗工人和农民工。小规模的骚乱已经在西方媒体的视野外发生-五环外的抢枪事件,挑逗辱骂站岗的哨兵。尽管它被中共夸张并成为他们宣传和使用武装部队坦克镇压和清场的堂皇借口。如果你了解大陆的情况,部队官兵通常是未满 或二十出头的小孩,面对大批愤怒平民的过激反应,他们真的没有经验。流血事件,不仅出现在广场上,而且还有西方媒体覆盖范围以外的地方。我们研究历史,每次有武装部队的使用,流血是不能避免。那么,部队的伤亡可以证明什么?是否有暴民的出现?根据我两年多在北京的生活经验和当年还是高中或大学生有参加这民运的聊天。我得到的是,这民运是必要的,但反应可能是有过激-指的是双方。 <br /> <br />我的重点是:当年是否有必要使用武装部队清场?是否有必要命令允许开枪?有没有其他任何选择来解决这个问题? <br /><br />如果联系到陈枢机的讲话:他们是为信念而死的烈士还是为基督信仰而死的殉道者?<br /><br />我个人认为作为一个有良知的天主教,不应把两码事混为一谈。这是对天主教徒和非教徒的严重误导。或引用教宗本笃十六世自己说,梵二是否正如现在大多数人理解一样,是一个超级教理(Super-dogma)大公会议?给我们创造了新教理?他的回答是绝对的“不”。这给我们,神职和信徒深刻的反思。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-47948680738876119702009-06-09T00:36:55.039+08:002009-06-09T00:36:55.039+08:00由二十年前的“北京屠城”,到令我想到去年的“拉薩事件”。
在應對海外媒體方面,北京政府的顢頷遲鈍可說...由二十年前的“北京屠城”,到令我想到去年的“拉薩事件”。<br />在應對海外媒體方面,北京政府的顢頷遲鈍可說是二十年不變。然而,去年的拉薩事件終于沒有像“天安門事件”一樣被西方集團任意描成“拉薩屠城”“西藏大屠殺”(事情初起時,每日報紙電視幾乎是一邊倒的‘屠城’論調)。這實在不是“全能中共”的“能力”日新月異,而是我們的民眾有了覺醒,不再像二十年前那樣愚昧麻木,能被西方輿論玩弄于股掌間了。Theologoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13966541700233096201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-21235730595497883862009-06-09T00:22:02.196+08:002009-06-09T00:22:02.196+08:00靚仔兄:
我不反對以類比角度理解六四死難者作為「殉道者」。其實亦有跡象顯示,西方部份媒體亦有使用「...靚仔兄:<br /><br />我不反對以類比角度理解六四死難者作為「殉道者」。其實亦有跡象顯示,西方部份媒體亦有使用「June 4 martyrs」一語。<br /><br />但樞機在他的講道詞中,卻明顯地應用了「與基督一起死在十字架上」,並明確地指出他們「已」和耶穌一起在天國受光榮。小弟所擔心的,正是此一表達。<br /><br />理論上,若陳樞機本人確信六四死難者全已升了天堂,則為他們向天主獻上代禱豈不是多餘的嗎?六四彌撒亦因此而添上了「某某殉道紀念彌撒」的色彩。<br /><br />你還記得數年前,我們所探討過的「為教外人士獻祭」的問題嗎?小弟很多時覺得,有些神學問題未令人滿意地予以解決,則恆常有機會成為教會團體當中的計時炸彈......Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-64561518019911575622009-06-09T00:11:48.470+08:002009-06-09T00:11:48.470+08:00靚仔說:“基督說,最偉大的愛情是為朋友捨棄自己的生命.我想六四的死難者的"朋友"...靚仔說:“基督說,最偉大的愛情是為朋友捨棄自己的生命.我想六四的死難者的"朋友",就是他的國家,天主教教理稱:愛國及服務國家是基於感恩責任,並由愛德而來.<br />如果天主是愛是真實的,那為堅持純真愛情而作的犧牲的人被"類比"地陳述為"殉道者",我個人認為是可以接受的,究竟我們所說的"道"是甚麼呢?按自然啟示,刻在我們良心深處的難道就不是"天主的道"嗎?”<br /><br />回應:準此道理,國共內戰時代,被國民黨所殺的無數共產黨人,亦是出于“愛國家”的熱情而甘心赴死的。這些人是否也是“類比意義上的神聖殉道者”?如果是,為何不見樞機大人為之開彌撒,公開在教堂褒揚一番耶?<br />更進一步想想,當年的義和團,雖則是被邪教鼓動,但也是滿懷一腔對“大清國”的熱愛的呢。則這些屠殺基督徒最后又被列強屠殺的拳民,也在一定程度上是“殉道者”了呢。(按上面幾位的言論,“愛”是最大,信信邪教么,是“小污點”而已矣。君不見當年六四學生也在廣場上豎立神像,頂禮膜拜嘛。)<br />可能諸君要說,共產黨也好,義和團也好,是“黑名冊上人”,絕對褒揚不得。那么,當年與昭宗皇帝一同殉國的哀愍太子可不是共產黨,而且本身也是領過洗的天主教徒,為了國家社稷而蒙難,幾百年來,天主教內可有哪位樞機大人稱之為“殉道者”?<br />所以講來講去,還是“政治正確”至高無上。所謂民主自由,是現時代的神諭,而忠孝仁義,則是過氣了的意識形態。于是乎,民運學生的怨靈可以作為“殉道者”而在天主教的祭臺上受光榮,而曾領洗奉教,至死還盼望著教廷和耶穌會的奧援的公思當定太子就注定只好做孤魂野鬼了。<br /><br />至于alienz所說:“如果我們可以在生活裡找到基督,這個就一定不是肋匝肋人耶穌,而是「愛」。基督說他是道路真理生命,這也一定不是人性的耶穌,而是天主的愛,只有愛,才會是到天國的道路。” 則更不知是哪個教會的訓導,何方神聖的道理了。<br />“如果我們可以在生活裡找到基督,這個就一定不是肋匝肋人耶穌”——這如果不是異端道理,則我不知尚有什么可以被稱作異端道理了。<br /><br />關于二十年前的歷史:<br />靚仔說:“以六四死難者為"虛擬"人士的人,我對他除鄙視外,並沒有其他話要說.”<br />對,您大可鄙視區區在下,這也是“天賦人權”嘛。就好比在下一向也很鄙視你們的陳樞機(可不是從他做樞機甚至做主教開始,慈幼會時代的‘陳神父’早就是為在下所不齒的一個人物了。)但是鄙視也好,蔑視也罷,不過是一種情緒。要證明發生過“大屠殺”“血案”,到底還是要做考證的功夫,要拿證據說話的。不能一句“我信全能的中共湮滅了一切證據。亞孟。”了事的。列位自可將“六四屠城”作為一個“信德的奧跡”來接受,但是拿不出證據,卻難服眾人之心之口也。<br /><br />alienz 說:“八九年六月四日,有很多人死了,是鐵一般的事實。當然,我們不肯定有十個還是十萬個人死去,我們也不肯定是在廣場裡面,還是廣場外面死去,我們更不肯定是被故意射殺還是被流彈所殺。因為這一切的真相,都被當權者封印著。”<br /><br />回應:“八九年六月四日有很多人死”固然是“鐵一般的事實”。因為自人類按照上主的命令,“遍布大地”以來,就無一日不是“有許多人死”的。然而,要把所謂的“六四血案”做成翻不了的鐵案,光搞搞情緒化,高舉“政治正確”,抱事后諸葛亮的海外媒體大腿,都是不成的。<br />十個人死還是十萬個人死,是有“由量而至于質的分別”的。<br />如果清場時有十人死,則不可名為“屠殺”也。四日之前的平民襲警事件中,死傷軍警亦不止十人,以此而指當時市民學生“屠殺警察”可乎? 在廣場滯留學生罔顧戒嚴令,且有暴力襲警行為的情況下,若有十人的死傷,只能說是沖突中難以避免的悲劇,而不能說是“屠殺”。<br />十萬之數太過夸張,也違背基本的常識。就以外國媒體報道過的“數萬”“數千”來說吧。如果事實真有數千人死,則確可定性為“屠殺”“慘案”。問題是,數千有名有姓,有家人老小,有同學朋友的“社會的人”一夜慘死,為何二十年來海內外的“民主人士”竟然收集不到百分之一的“烈士”的資料?難道他們都被“族滅”了?拜托各位不要再簡單地以“我信全能的中共”來搪塞。悠悠眾口,不是那么容易堵住的。尤其是在信息發達的網絡時代,若說收集不到二十年前數萬(或者數千)非正常死亡者中百分之一的人的資料,這是不可想象的。<br />我至今日去過北京不下十數次,就當年的事件,詢問過不同階層,不同年齡,不同意識形態的當地市民。從獲得的陳述來看,沒有任何證據可以表明六四夜間確實發生過人數眾多的非正常死亡事件。<br />死幾萬(或者幾千)人是什么概念?在熱浪炎炎的京城六月,幾萬(或者幾千)尸體堆積在天安門前是何種景象?當時京城有能力處理大量尸體的,就要說是八寶山火化場。突然要焚化數萬(或者數千)尸體,是怎么一個概念?難道對于這種事情,竟然不會留下任何見證人嗎? 當然,堅信“全能的中共”基本教義者,可以說所有的當事人都因為受威脅而不敢講真話,甚至所有的當事人都被滅口了,又或者解放軍有特制化尸水,甘露輕彈,尸體就“溶作膿血”了。更可以說,事實上中國解放軍都是啖肉羅剎轉世,當夜就吧幾萬學生生吞下肚了也。<br /><br />alienz 又說:“即使有極端主義情緒,也是行動上的小污點,基本質都是為了愛。”<br />六月四日之前的流血沖突中,一些學生和市民表現出來的“極端情緒”可不是能用一句“小污點”輕松帶過的呢。試問,暴力襲警,焚燒警車,將軍警毆打至死(因當時無上級可還手的命令,以聽命為天職的軍警雖有槍械,卻被活活打死),甚至將死者剖腹抽腸,淋油焚尸。這些豈可謂是“小污點”而已?這些事件,在下不是得自“全能中共”的宣傳,乃是親眼所見。我見故而信,諸君是不見而信。若六四事件是一“天啟奧秘”,則不見而信者乃真福,然而六四到底不過是“此世間事”,則不見而信的并非真福,而是真蠢人也。Theologoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13966541700233096201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-55037432967857683952009-06-09T00:10:55.168+08:002009-06-09T00:10:55.168+08:00Alienz兄:
小弟不否定六四死難者上天堂的可能性,但這完全是基於對天主的仁慈抱開放態度,多於對...Alienz兄:<br /><br />小弟不否定六四死難者上天堂的可能性,但這完全是基於對天主的仁慈抱開放態度,多於對他們生前行為的欣賞,並認定它們構成「為義而被害」的特性。(請留意:小弟這麼說,並不表示對他們的生前行為不欣賞...)<br /><br />在信仰問題的討論上,我們應避免「非此即彼」的陷阱。就如你所說的:<br /><br />「如果我們可以在生活裡找到基督,這個就一定不是肋匝肋人耶穌,而是『愛』。基督說他是道路真理生命,這也一定不是人性的耶穌,而是天主的愛,只有愛,才會是到天國的道路。」<br /><br />我們的信仰基礎,在於降生成人的主基督。作為「道路真理生命」的那位,正正就是納匝肋人耶穌。而我們的得救,正正就是透過參與基督的人性,而得以分享祂的天主性。若將「愛」說得過份抽象,則有可能使它的意義「無所不包」而變得「空洞」。<br /><br />愛國不一定等於愛天主。我們不是「愛國會」。Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-49233258237594605402009-06-08T23:58:31.512+08:002009-06-08T23:58:31.512+08:00Theologos,
在香港,小弟年幼時亦從電視看過相關的現場片段,而比較相信「屠城」的事實性。
...Theologos,<br /><br />在香港,小弟年幼時亦從電視看過相關的現場片段,而比較相信「屠城」的事實性。<br /><br />但撇開「事實性」的爭論而言,小弟仍比較傾向於認同閣下的思路。Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287147971718168049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9201031185840101415.post-53476016296440863102009-06-08T14:43:54.991+08:002009-06-08T14:43:54.991+08:00基督說,最偉大的愛情是為朋友捨棄自己的生命.
我想六四的死難者的"朋友",就是他...基督說,最偉大的愛情是為朋友捨棄自己的生命.<br />我想六四的死難者的"朋友",就是他的國家,天主教教理稱:愛國及服務國家是基於感恩責任,並由愛德而來.<br />如果天主是愛是真實的,那為堅持純真愛情而作的犧牲的人被"類比"地陳述為"殉道者",我個人認為是可以接受的,究竟我們所說的"道"是甚麼呢?按自然啟示,刻在我們良心深處的難道就不是"天主的道"嗎?<br />以六四死難者為"虛擬"人士的人,我對他除鄙視外,並沒有其他話要說.<br /><br />靚仔Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com